Technocrat

not a deterence

zogger
Tue Jan 30 12:08:33 -0800 2007
 (in reply to Gray Wolves Partially Removed from Endangered Species List ) manage
It's not a deterence, it is an outright prevention of individual predators to keep working your herd or flock. Once they get a taste of the easy pickin's, they won't stop, as it is much easier for them them trying to nail totally wild game.  You can even see this where the prey animal is "clothed monkey meat" with tigers, once they eat a human, they won't stop, too easy to catch humans. Another example, bears at city dumps or raccoons in the backyard eating your garden, they will *not* stop until they are forcefully stopped, either killed or removed to a very far away place, as in lots and lots of miles.

and in the case of large predators, don't underestimate their propensity for attacking humans, they can and will given an opportunity and being hungry, and there is no way to predict when it might happen. There was just a case a week or so ago I was reading about with a cougar, but luckily the guy escaped when his wife beat on the cat, but he got chewed up some. See if I can find the link...

http://cbs5.com/localwire/localfsnews/bcn/2007/01/29/n/HeadlineNews/LION-VICTIM/resources_bcn_html

In the cases of attacks by wolves, it is not as clear cut, and that is because they hunt in packs and not much is left of small critters (humans are small for this example). I would guess quite a few "missing" people over the last couple of centuries out west, those where the remains haven't been found, were so totally eaten that nothing much remained at all.

I give my dogs bones, they eat them, entirely, and there isn't much sign of bones later on if you get my drift, their stomach acids are that good.

Like I said, I am in favor of having some large predators around, but I wouldn't be so naieve as to think that we as humans almost universally around the planet tended to eliminate them as much as possible in our immediate vicinities, just for no good reason. It is because they are *dangerous*.

forgot an anecdotal

zogger
Tue Jan 30 12:27:31 -0800 2007
 manage
Not my, mine Dad's. When he was in the service in ww2 he was mostly stationed on Kodiak island. They had a lot of downtime from flying -he was on martin mariners for patrols- because of inclement weather, so they would go fishing. When they went fishing, they always had a designated party with a BAR handy from the threat from the hugemongous bears. One time he said they had to shoot one, mostly they would just split if they saw any and just leave whatever fish they had so the bears wouldn't follow them.

Thinking about it, I have another. got a friend from a long time ago is a zoo professional, specialty bears. She would get to go on polar bear trips up around churchill manitoba. She had a lot of stories of the folks who live year round up there relating to her how aggressive the polar bears can get, complete with having one ton guys trying to break into  cabins with the folks inside.  It's not all walt disney fluffy bunny action! Just don't know how I would react to a bear trying to break in, but I bet it might involve a 12 bore with slugs, endangered or not. I've been in that exact situation with two legged predators before, so I imagine 4 legged would be about the same. Luckily the two legged took off, one shot across the bow over their heads was enough to convince those guys that breaking into that house was a bad idea. (they didn't think anyone was home because no cars were parked outside at the time--they were *really* surprised at the very loud bang, tell ya whut, they couldn't split fast enough. Hopefully they acted as a deterrent for them later on, in ye olden days when a little more home defense proactive behavior was more legally acceptable, it would have been a guaranteed  deterrent.

In retrospect it is sorta funny. They were trying to jimmy the door in with a tire iron, I was inside with the shotgun (way out in the country). I kicked the door open, laid the barrel on the dudes shoulder right next to his head-hard actually, smacked it down hard, then touched her off and jumped back and racked another one in. The LOOK of surprise was pretty amazing. He's probably half deaf now, and who cares either. I know they never came back. Maybe dumb, but I was only 17 then and just knew what they was doing was wrong, I was by myself, and there was a carfull of them and one me. So that's what I did.

I got more predator stories but that's enough for now.
not a deterence
Josh
Tue Jan 30 15:25:34 -0800 2007
 manage
Domestic dogs are thousands of times more dangerous than large predators in terms of attacks and fatalities, yet we encourage cohabitation with these animals. It isn't fair to apply the double standard. It's baseless fear mongering. Data for total fatalities and attacks for all the above are easy to come by. I understand the threat large predators (particularly wolf packs) are to livestock, but killing the animals doesn't solve the problem. Killing animals can solve the larger issue of population control. Like I said before, if we expect legitimate cohabitation with large predators we need to be more clever about how we diffuse populations from unhealthy gradients. This is something we have failed to do completely.
not a deterence
President4242
Tue Jan 30 17:06:02 -0800 2007
 manage

Domestic dogs are thousands of times more dangerous than large predators in terms of attacks and fatalities, yet we encourage cohabitation with these animals.

And for just about any rancher in Eastern Oregon, if your dog attacks their herd, you can say goodbye to that dog, it will be shot if caught.  Completely legally too- a trespassing dog or cat in Oregon is officially a stray out of the control of the owner, a pest that the neighbors are not expected to put up with.
not a deterence
scott7477
Wed Jan 31 06:55:23 -0800 2007
 manage
Does that law apply in metro areas of Oregon such as Portland, Salem, or Eugene?
not a deterence
President4242
Wed Jan 31 10:04:39 -0800 2007
 manage

Does that law apply in metro areas of Oregon such as Portland, Salem, or Eugene?

I believe it does, but to a lesser extent since often firearms are banned by local ordinance, and likely you're not going to have any livestock to be damaged (also depending on local ordinance- I was surprised to learn that I could keep chickens in the backyard in Beaverton).

I agree on the dogs

zogger
Wed Jan 31 18:37:25 -0800 2007
 manage
I've related here my encounters with a wild pack not too long ago. And that particular pack only stopped coming around when I killed one and wounded another. 4 times total, twice they attacked us. The first time theyran at my girlfriend who was just walking from the greenhouse to the house and they surprised her, she saw them coming fast and ran, made it to the house and our dogs startled them, then I ran out and they ran. The second time I was looking for them later that day because I had a hunch where they had gone to hide, and I was right and they jumped out and came at us, but one of my dogs got in the middle of them and went surprisingly (to me anyway, medium awesome fight) medieval and held her own for awhile, but I couldn't get a shot in. So I got in close and was going to try and kick some away-distract them-to get a shot, but they took off. Awhile later-on the next week they came back and that's when I finally nailed them, less than 50 yards from my calves, which they were directly headed for.

  Basically, when I am outside, I am armed, I am under no illusion as to how I would fare faced with half a dozen wild pitbull crosses. Quite dangerous guys once they go nutso feral like that.

 In the US, the top threats to humans from animals are dog attack, followed by white tail deer collisions in cars.

And just to be clear, I am not one to say just shoot all the large predators on sight, far from it, I like them, just we need to always take into perspective that we as humans have a right to live and a right to space as well. A common sense compromise is in order, and it depends on the human, and the animal, on a case by case basis. Extreme problem animals just have to be dealt with. It is unfortunate but true. Most will not become much of a problem at all, but some just will. Just depends.  And I like the idea of the huge guard dogs, that is proving to be a nice compromise for most stock - and your kids- protection scenarios and situations, -albeit people do lose dogs to the big predators, too.
 

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